Normally, Carey shares information about mental health. This time around she couldn't tear her mind away from the the Alex Murdaugh trial for murdering his son and wife. Lisa has been keeping up, Drea's catching up and Meag's doesn't know a thing. Get ready for a rousing, somewhat chaotic episode of Best Friends Sharing Interesting Sh*t.
Normally, Carey shares information about mental health. This time around she couldn't tear her mind away from the the Alex Murdaugh trial for murdering his son and wife. Lisa has been keeping up, Drea's catching up and Meag's doesn't know a thing. Get ready for a rousing, somewhat chaotic episode of Best Friends Sharing Interesting Sh*t.
ashes on your face, on your head?
Lisa:I didn't have time to go. I didn't have time to go to Ash. It's not a holy day of obligation, first of all. And second of all, I just didn't have enough time. And then I went on a retreat where I went to mass every morning. So I figured, you know, balance out.
Drea:That's enough.
Carey:You were good.
Lisa:I was good with God. I think God's good with me. I'm good.
Drea:good. We're so happy for you and.
Lisa:All right, you. Yeah, I like it. I feel, anyway. Good, good feeling. I'm start. Starting this podcast with positive vibes. So Carrie, how are you gonna ruin it?
Carey:I dunno. We'll
Drea:not gonna ruin it. She's making our day.
Carey:there's a lot of possibilities. Um, so I, you know, is, I was actually planning on being more prepared than I am, but I am prepared just in a different way. Um, So it started out as one thing and then it turned into another thing because I just kind of wanted to check in with everybody who has, has anybody been following the Alex Murdoch trial?
Lisa:Me. Me, except I'm very into it. Except I have, I missed the last Thursday part. Cause I was on that retreat. I was for those podcasters or podcasters, people listening to the podcast. I was on a retreat and I was disconnected from the world. So I missed the last few days. But the fact that he testified is just amazing to me.
Meags:I'm just disconnected from the world period because like I tried to Google it last week after you guys were talking about it. I got distracted with something else and I don't even know who this person is or what they did or anything. So you can consti, you know, you can consider me like a vessel to be filled with your knowledge. I got nothing.
Lisa:Andrea,
Carey:Andrea, are you somewhere in the middle? Like, do you know what's going on? But not really. Or
Drea:Well, I, I I started listening to the Murdoch Murders podcast, um, but I'm like way behind, like, I, I'm like years behind. So, um, like the guy just on my podcast that I'm listening to, he just got. Uh, indicted for murder, but now I know he's on trial,
Carey:So.
Drea:but he didn't just do that.
Lisa:Like two weeks. Two weeks of trial. How long
Carey:she's probably another one who maybe has been following it. But just for everybody and our listeners, a brief synopsis. Um, and this is really an overview. Um, Murda is a very wealthy, um, trial attorney in somewhere Georgia, in the low
Drea:Carolina,
Lisa:South
Drea:Carolina.
Lisa:I believe it's, I think, I believe it's the town of, it's the town of Hampton, I
Carey:Hampton. Hampton. And his, his family's like run to town forever. They've been solicitor, which is like a prosecutor. They've been, um, they've had this,
Lisa:four generations of attorneys in that town.
Carey:yeah, so, and it's, um, you know, they, they've had this ginormous law firm, this big employer, and he just kind of ran the town it seems like. Um, So one of the grandsons, this, this guy Alex Murdoch gets an all like, he just lives an really privileged life. He's a law partner at the big, big law firm. He's a plaintiff's lawyer. So he makes his money basically off of like other people's tragedies. He made a lot of money off of train accidents, you know, suing train companies cuz they ran into somebody or something. Um, but then just, you know, Uh, just plaintiff's kind, kind of case. Civil cases, slip and falls, but big ones, big, big dollars. So he was rich and he was part of a firm that brought in a lot of those fees, and, and they were, everybody was rich. Um, and just entitled and privileged and gross and white and just awful. Um, I mean, not.
Lisa:the number of properties he had just is
Carey:Yeah, I don't even know. I mean, it, it, it, it, it, it was just, it's just astounding to me. It's a kind of wealth. I don't, I don't know. I don't understand. Um, but, um, it's, you know, whatever. So any rate. Long story short, Alex is stealing all kinds of money. He's like stealing money from his clients. He'll sue a client, yo, on behalf of the client. Let's say he will sue. Let's just say it's a slip and fall behalf. His client, he would sue Walmart and say, oh, hey, I, you know, fucked up my hip or whatever, and I need all this treatment and they need all this money to get me back to where I was. And Walmart cuts'em a check, cuts Alex as this client's attorney, a check, and they go away. Now Alex is supposed to give the money to. The client, obviously minus the fee and expenses takes a little while. Um, but eventually the client gets the money. Well, he hadn't been given over settlement checks for years, so millions and millions of dollars. So, um,
Lisa:Yeah, and he lying to his clients. So the clients never even, did you hear that? Like he would tell them, oh, it's still being processed and it's still blah, blah, blah. It's taking a while. Totally lying to his clients. I mean, it's just, that's. That's why, that's why I was able to go for so long because it kept lying to them and convincing them that it just wasn't, the money wasn't there yet.
Carey:Well, sure. And he absolutely just relied on his family name, the name, and, and people like, just trusted him. Stupid. Good old boy network. Um, so. So that goes on and he's stealing money and he has all, all his property and guns and shit like that. And, um, then his law firm's like, Hey man, I don't know, something, something happens and it comes to the attention of the c e o that there, there's some money missing. And he goes, so they go to confront Alex, the c e o. And then maybe another lawyer or not, I don't know. But anyways, the firm is starting to suspect some, something is awry
Drea:They hired a forensic. They, they, they've hired a forensic accountant.
Lisa:Uhhuh after? Yeah. Once they, after they confronted him, I believe, to investigate
Carey:Oh yeah, yeah. So that's, yeah, that's like a, um, um, yeah, I'll get there, there in a second. So they had, um, All right, so say, so they tell Alex, look, we know you've been stealing money or whatever, like, and um, and he goes, huh. Um, and basically they're saying that, that that news, that shock motivated him to kill brutally, kill his wife, and. And I, I don't think that the state has made its burden. I don't, I think that they have, um, uh, you know, I mean, I think that they have, they have proven he's, he's an entitled prick. Uh, you know, that he's like an overprivileged, mediocre white man. He's a thief.
Drea:Yeah.
Carey:He's a. Yeah, and I mean, he's just like the worst kind of middle age good old frat boy that you can think of. Um, I think he lacks more.
Lisa:I think they def, I think you're right, like as a far as motive, I think it's really hard to justify that he, why he killed, killed them. I wish they would've gone more like, he's like a narcissist and a lot of narcissists end up killing their family if they think they're, if there's something gonna happen with them. Then, and they're not gonna live then, or their life's gonna fall apart. Then the, his family can't live without him. You know, like, um, there was a case of that in Illinois, instead of divorcing his wife, he killed him because they couldn't live without him. What went on
Drea:You know what he seemed, I, I mean, so like I haven't been, first of all me, we happen to mention that he is, he's on trial for killing his son and his wife.
Meags:I got that now. Yep.
Drea:Okay.
Meags:I'm, I'm following. I'm following. along. I figured there was a murder there somewhere. Carrie got to it. I knew she would like, I never doubted her. I was confident she would eventually tell me who
Lisa:it it was on the, the sprawling hunting property, by the way. It wasn't just like their house. It was a sprawling hunting
Meags:you know, I'm not my 12 year old who needs them. My 12 year old needs the murder to happen in the first five minutes of any like movie or TV show, or he's out like there's nobody getting murdered. Like I'm a little more patient. I'm willing.
Carey:No, I appreciate that. You know, I, I, when I, whenever I get critiqued for legal on my legal writing, um, it, it's always that I like, kind of bury the lead. So I need to, you know,
Drea:Yeah, it was under, it was under Alec Murdoch's wife's grave that lead We're like, where the fuck is it?
Lisa:I have to say like the circumstantial evidence of like the phone stuff, how like he. Like they show all this stuff with his car. It's amazing between your car and your phone, you can't hide anywhere. Like they know where you are, like when in certain places
Carey:what have we learned so far? If
Drea:Well, do you wanna say what happened? Like,
Carey:wait, what?
Lisa:they were.
Drea:just a pre, I'm gonna explain. Well, Lisa. Alright. Carrie, do you wanna explain like
Carey:Yeah. Yeah. So let me, yeah, so let me kinda get the, so number one, if you're gonna commit a murder, you have got to leave your cell phone, electronics, anything somewhere. Just don't touch them and ride a bike because otherwise,
Lisa:Orio or your car's gotta be from like,
Drea:Or a horse, you can ride a horse,
Carey:A horse. Just something that cannot.
Drea:steal someone's horse
Meags:A tricycle
Drea:tricycle. Yeah.
Lisa:Nothing with nothing with that. What was it? What's, what was that thing that got him? The, the Allstar, what's it called? With the,
Carey:OnStar. I've always thought that was a little big brother. God.
Lisa:yeah. They were able to find where he was and when and how fast he was going. All on OnStar.
Carey:Yeah.
Drea:Oh wow.
Lisa:Yeah.
Meags:Your car is a treasure trove of.
Lisa:Uh
Carey:Yeah. Yeah. So, so anyway, moral the story. Yeah. Use a horse or a bicycle. Um, um, anything, a unicycle,
Drea:Anything but your car.
Carey:Right, right,
Lisa:you just cycle down that country road
Carey:Yeah. So I mean, I, I'm absolutely convinced that he is, um, that he lacks any kind of empathy. Um, but, and, and I think, you know, I kind of, that's just, that's where unchecked power and privilege gets you. Um, you know, you're just above it all. Just take everybody's money, you don't care. Um, but I haven't been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that he's a murderer. Um, so, you know, the law says I should have reasonable. These are my reasons. Not once, not once Has any witness suggested that he did not love his family? Um, I actually believe that he adored Paul. Um, and, uh, I mean, have you any of you guys heard some of his testimony with, like, about, uh, or heard of some of this testimony about, you know, people talking about, uh, Alex's relationships?
Lisa:Yeah, I have, but I'll let the others speak first.
Drea:I mean, I haven't been paying a lot of, I haven't been paying a lot of attention to. The trial, but it, it, it really doesn't, it just doesn't make sense. Like, I didn't understand like what his, why he would do it. Especially when, like, I've been listening to his, uh, jailhouse calls recently and, you know, he cl he talks to everybody in his family. I mean, he clearly loves his older son, Buster which, why name your kid Buster.
Lisa:Well, and this kid. Busters was, seemed a lot like what Carrie was saying. Just that No. Like empathy? No, just he was, he wasn't cold, but it, there was something about Buster's testimony that I just thought was kind of, I dunno, nonchalant about everything. Like he, you know, it bug me.
Drea:Yeah. I don't, I, yeah, I, I, I mean, like, I haven't. It just doesn't make sense. Like to me, it just doesn't make sense. Like if you listen to the 9 1 1 call, I mean, yeah, he could have been, he could have been faking all those emotions, but he was, he seemed pretty fucked up. You
Lisa:You know, I couldn't, yeah. But that's could be guilt. He could just be feeling guilty for killing them and. Bad that it happened, but I do wonder, I mean, okay, this guy that Carrie hasn't gotten to yet, and I'm sorry if I'm jumping the gun here, but supposedly it was what was$50,000 a week drug habit supposedly. How does that, how, how, how do you consume that much drugs?
Carey:yeah. So, so, so we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there.
Lisa:Because I think, cause that's another like argument like, Either like if he's involved with some sort of drug gang, something, were they like, you have to do this or we're gonna do it. And maybe he came upon and saw these gang members kill his family and he's not admitting it. I dunno.
Drea:He's still a piece of shit. Even if he didn't kill his family, he ruined a bunch of other people's lives,
Lisa:He's going to jail for the rest of his life. It's just me, not be for murder.
Carey:Yeah, I mean, it just kind of really matters. Is he gonna go to like murder or jail or financial crimes? Jail? Um, so, but um, yeah. Okay. So, so I was like, I was talking about like some of the reasons that I, uh, for my reasonable doubt and, um, so we've got this, I, you know, I, I, I really think his emotion has been true about his, his family. I think he, he loved his family. Um, I think that sled, which was the investigative branch, or is the investigative branch botched the investigation? Um, I I just think that they, they did not know how to process a crime scene. I mean, even to shit. I know from watching Law and Order, you know, can't do that.
Lisa:you know, order and, and True Crime podcast. I'm like, come on, you block off a scene. You let him and his attorneys go back into his house after this. Like,
Drea:Oh, Megan, it's, it's wild. It's so wild.
Meags:I gotta. Haven't spent some time in South Carolina. You haven't surprised me yet.
Drea:I, but like, seriously, like the next day it like his friends and his brother are walking around the crime scene looking for his wife's phone. I was like, what the fuck? Who let them do this?
Lisa:yeah, in the video of them, they. They're in the like gun room, that's like the pool table, and his buddies are all sitting there while the cops are looking at the different guns. I'm like, when does this happen? Like when are these buddies are just allowed to hang out and watch the cops do their job? It was bizarre to
Drea:So unprofessional.
Lisa:so I do think that it's a big hole. The defense team keeps saying, oh, they just centered on him at the beginning and, and wouldn't let it go. I'm like, obviously they weren't centering on him in the beginning, or they wouldn't have let him just wander around his house afterwards. I mean,
Drea:Yeah.
Lisa:so that's a, that's a poor argument for the defense to me.
Carey:Um, so, you know, and then there's this question of. it's$50,000 a week drug, drug habit. I mean, that is,$50,000 a week is not, that's, that's not a personal use amount. I mean, absolutely absurd to think that someone is using$50,000 a week and they're a practicing attorney. I mean, he might have sucked and been a liar, but he still had to win cases. You know,
Lisa:Lots of things. Nobody's saying that like he didn't do his job or like, okay, he showed late to work, but what partner doesn't show up late to work? I mean, he just, yeah, he wasn't, he was doing way too much for doing supposedly that much drugs. I just,
Carey:Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Fucking,
Drea:So I have a.
Carey:I don't even, I mean, I don't think that that kind of personal use on opioids is even possible and to be alive, you know?
Drea:Yeah. I mean, yeah, you'd be killing yourself that first day, first hour
Carey:my, yeah, so I, I,$50,000 a week is, you know, I mean, you're a drug dealer, you're absolutely, you're a drug dealer. Um, and the, the thing that they have, they've, there's some things that the prosecution has an addressed, and that's this and it, you know, this$50,000 a week. Oh boy, that's a lot of drugs. I mean, he has, he has an airport hangar in his backyard. I. Who else put drug dealers have an airport in here. In a landing strip.
Lisa:Okay, but Mike, I got a question with that. Is it really a useful one? Like I thought when he got the property that was there, but I didn't think he was using the property for that like
Drea:But he bought it from a drug dealer.
Carey:Yeah. Right,
Drea:it from a drug dealer, and it, and it is usable. My uncle ha, he wasn't a drug dealer, or if he was, he was an incredibly unsuccessful drug dealer. Um, but he had a, he had a little farm out, um, kind of south of Fort Worth, and he had a, he had a, runway there, so you can't have him. Yeah, but not, he did not run drugs. I'm, I'm positive.
Lisa:All right. Okay.
Carey:I mean, I think if you have an airport hangar, it's not unreasonable su to suspect you're dealing drugs. Um, You know, in your backyard. But, um, anyway, so he had it. I, my understanding was it, it, it was operational. It has been used. Um, and you know, if you, if you're a dealer and you, you know, you screw somebody over, somebody you love is going to get killed. I mean, that's just, you know, we all have watched, nor it's just that doc, the cartel is brutal. They would no question killed.
Drea:Yeah.
Lisa:Still watch Ozark. There you go.
Carey:It was, I mean, it was just a brutal murder. Um, uh, each were killed with different guns. Um, I mean the, all right, let's presume Alex did it so he had the presence of mind to kill them with separate guns, and I don't think if you shoot your. You know, you shoot your wife, you're gonna have the presence of mind to set down that gun, pick up another one cuz these are big fucking guns. That's like, he's not like holding both of'em at the same time and then shoot your son or vice versa, however it went down. I just don't, I, that doesn't make any sense to me.
Meags:Unless you're a planner. If you're a planner, then that makes sense cuz you've got the whole thing laid out. And clearly he's some kind of a planner if he's an embezzler. Being an embezzler is not the easiest way to get money.
Carey:Well, that's true.
Drea:Well, for him it was pretty good. It was spez, but actually, but the, the drug thing does make sense also because, If you're looking at kind of the other infor, I don't know what information they have in the, the trial that got going on right now, but at least with his financial crimes, he's clearly, you know, involved in,
Carey:Nobody's talking about where all this fucking money has gone. You know,
Drea:know, that's what I'm saying. It's like, cause like he, like he has with this bank, I mean, he would go$500,000 in debt. Like he would get lines of credit for them for like a million bucks. There's no way they're gonna do that if they don't know that there's some kind of a collateral for him. And you know, like, you know, and that's gonna, I mean, and, and if he's dealing drugs, That actually answers a lot of questions, right? Like, cuz they, you know, if you think No, I'm like thinking about it. I'm like, yeah. Uh, if, if they're Dr. If they know that he's in this kind of trouble and that he's going to be going down and he's going to prison, then they're not gonna get their money. And so why not take his parent family out?
Carey:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I wish that the prosecution or the defense would put up an expert that. I mean, at least like put up a, a, a pharmacist to be like you. There's no possible way that you can use$50,000 worth of drugs opioids a week.
Lisa:Yeah, I do wonder if there is like an FBI investigation going on in the background about his drug dealings that just, you know, can't be discussed in the trial. I don't.
Carey:they're very well could be, but I think that I, I just, that amount of drugs. just floored when they somebo. I don't know who testified to
Lisa:Yeah, I was. like a week.
Meags:Well, I mean, I will say from spending a lot of time working on a newspaper that, um, the love for inflating the dollar value of drugs is rampant. In all the government agencies, particularly the law enforcement agencies, they love to spread it all out on the table and be like, this is worth a million dollars. And it's like, dude, that's like one brick of seeds and stems. That's, no, you're wrong. Like that's just not worth that much money. So like I feel like, you know, like I really would like to know how, like I would love to see the breakdown of how they got to that number
Lisa:Well, that's, that's, that's the defense attorney saying that defense attorney was saying it that came from the defense side, that it was$50,000 a week.
Drea:I, this whole thing is new to me. I, I guess that I have not gotten to the drugs, uh, part of
Carey:The prosecution, I think, has worked really hard to not, uh, to not go there. Um,
Lisa:Well, it's really no excuse cause they're kinda like, oh yeah, he this bad behavior he had, a poor guy had a drug problem like, Tough shit. He's still committed all these crimes. I mean, definitely the financial crimes. I mean, yeah, he hasn't, he hasn't been convicted yet, but he testified to it, right? So it
Carey:oh, yeah. I, I don't think that his defense actually the most effective thing I think about his defense so far has been him. I never in a million years did I think that somebody getting up testifying on their own behalf would be a good thing, and he is handling the questions beautifully. Um, he's, he's, uh, admitting to all of the, he's admitting to all of it, but he didn't kill his wife and son. I mean, that is basically what it comes down to. Um, they aren't asking questions about where's the money going, so there's no kind of follow up. But yeah, I mean, he, he's like, yeah, I, you know, I suck. I, I stole all this money, but I didn't kill my wife and son, and he's just very effective at conveying that.
Drea:could he have been there? Let's see. I mean if it feels like such a, a movie kind of thing. But could he have been there? Could he have been there and seen someone do it? Could he have been there and seen some? Could he have been there and seen someone do it
Lisa:That's what I think. I think it moved into it.
Carey:Absolutely. And if it was drug people, would you Shut the fuck up.
Drea:now? Why wouldn't they kill him?
Meags:Because he has something that they want, like the ability to make the money.
Lisa:But here's what doesn't make sense about that. Why? Why was he okay with just Buster? Just there's, he did nothing. There's no testimony. There's Buster. Never felt like he needed to run off somewhere and be safe, like cuz obviously he would be next. And there's. You know, like if it was a drug thing, gang related thing, why wasn't Buster kept safe somewhere?
Drea:Well, maybe they didn't feel the need to kill'em all. Two's.
Carey:urgent Alex. I don't know. So that could probably point out their way. So those are my, I, so that's what I, that's kind of what I think now. I mean, now the prosecution may be good and they can kind of bring this all together for me in their closing. Um, but I don't, uh, I'm not sure. I, I, I'm just not sure.
Meags:Well, I can, I can see why they would want to avoid the drug angle because it opens up the reasonable doubt canned wide, wide, wide open.
Carey:Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think that they've been, you know, I mean they've been very strategic cuz if they don't, you know, they don't bring it up, the defense can't bring it up. So, um, you know, they can hint at it, they can around it, but they can't, um, I mean, they've gotta stay within the scope of what the prosecution is
Lisa:so what? I don't, so he lied. Here's the thing that, what pushes you to think he could have done it? Because he, he admitted, he lied. Um, and there's all that, there's there's a, so there's a recording of him down under the dog kennels cuz that's where they were both shot was during the dog kennels, not at the house. So he kept saying, after dinner, I laid on the couch and I fell asleep. I got up, I went to my mom's house to check on her cuz she is Alzheimer's. And her dad, his dad's in the hospital. So the nurse that's there
Carey:convenient.
Lisa:what
Carey:Awfully convenient,
Lisa:awfully. So he goes over there and the nurse testifies to how long he was there, uh, you know, and everything. She also testifies to, he told, you know, she was only there for like 20 minutes or whatever. He tells her later, well, I was actually there like 30 to 40 minutes.
Carey:Yeah.
Lisa:He, he wanted her to lie and she told the truth on the stand that he said this to her. Okay. So that, but he, so he tell, that's what he kept telling the police over and over again, that that's what he. But he actually had gone, there's a recording of him being down at the kennels with his wife and son like, um, 10 minutes before the last time their cell phones were used, cuz they don't exactly know when they were killed. But 10 minutes before their, their phone shut down forever or weren't used anymore. I don't know how best term for that is. They, um, you know, he was down there with him, so he was, there's total proof that he lied about. And then also he kept, he said too, when he got back from his mother's that he like checked for a pulse, you know, was all like trying to see if they were still alive. If they were breathing, then he called the cops. But when you look at the car and the phone records, he basically pulled up and like a minute later called 9 1 1. So that, when did he go and check for the pulse? I mean, it was just not enough time for him to do all the things that he said that he did. So why? Why is there all that lying? And then the phone records also show in the car records show him driving over to his mother's house, kind of in his speed, gradually going up after he passes the spot where her phone was found, and the phone last repositioned itself right when he was driving over that spot where the phone was found. So,
Drea:I'm confused. You confused me.
Lisa:I'm sorry. I know, and the jury's
Meags:she's, she's saying that the, that the data alleges that he threw the wife's phone out the window and sped up afterwards.
Lisa:right?
Meags:After the murder af, after finding the bodies that he, that he
Lisa:Yeah. Nylpi before it
Meags:up to him, disposing of the phone.
Lisa:yeah. Well, actually it was before he ca, before he found the bodies, but after he left his house to go to his mom's, the phone, the
Carey:When he admitted to, like he admitted to lying a about all of that, and to tell you the truth, um, God so terrible. Um, I can't really remember what his excuse was. Oh, well, I mean, basically his excuses. I was high. I didn't know what the fuck I was
Lisa:Exactly. It's all the drugs. All the drugs made me do it. And then the other thing too is the housekeeper. She knows what he was wearing when he left, which wasn't what he was wearing. Um, Later when the cops were at the house, which I mean, I guess people change after work, but it was a C phone shirt, and he later tried to tell the housekeeper, oh, you know, remember I was wearing whatever shirt, like he was trying to tell her to tell the police what he was wearing that day. It's just, why would you do that?
Drea:He's a pathological liar. And if you think about all the things he lies about, I, I'm not saying that I'm not, I'm not, I'm not defending him, but like, when you like, like it's very man, like a lot of, all of his lying is very manipulative. Like he's, you know, like, uh, trying to get people to, like you said, like say that he was wearing what he wasn't wearing, but he is also just trying to confuse them and make them
Carey:it's cause Oh yeah.
Lisa:Yeah, but
Carey:ultimate gaslight.
Lisa:why? If you're, if you're innocent, why? Why would you do.
Carey:You know, I defense is relying on heavily is that, um, he was so fucked up. Like he, he didn't really know what he was doing and when, when he. Found the bodies. He freaked out cuz he had drug, he had a shit ton of drugs in his pocket and you know, from kind of that point, paranoid because of the drugs and all these cops are coming, which no doubt he had a habit that is not unreasonable. Um, you know, this I super paranoid and then so you start telling one story and it snowballs and you don't know how the fuck to get out of it. I. He, I, I, I, he, they've injected that doubt into me. Um, so I think that was pretty good of the defense. Um, but
Meags:See my thing is like when Lisa says to me that his phone was there, like that doesn't, to me, that's like if I wanted to incriminate someone else. And all I had to do was take their phone. You know, like if, if I was really like a bad enough, bad guy to kill his wife and kid, like, why, why would I not say you're gonna sit on this fucking couch and I'm gonna take your phone and you're gonna, you know, and then you're, and then I'm gonna show you that they're dead and I'm gonna send you to drive. You know, I'm gonna, or you know, like, I feel like that's just not as much proof as I would like
Carey:Yeah.
Lisa:I could have told him, you're gonna go throw this out and you're gonna go get rid of all this evidence at your mom's house. I mean, it's, yeah, it's
Meags:Yeah. Like, I, like, like, you know, like, basically like I, well, you know, you, you think you're in the clear, I took your phone with me. You're not in the clear like you, like, you know, it's gonna say you were there, so you, you now need to do what I'm telling you. You
Lisa:So if I'm, if honestly, if I'm on the jury and that's like the possibility of what happened, I'd be like, well, then he's complicit to the murder anyway. Why not convict him? I mean, seriously, he's not saying, he hasn't admitted, he hasn't said anything. He hasn't warned anybody that these people are out there and they're out killing people like.
Carey:Yeah, but that's not the charge.
Drea:I wouldn't you be scared of a drug dealer?
Lisa:Well, but what does he have to lose? What does he have to lose? He's gonna go to prison no matter what.
Meags:Well, going to prison and getting killed in a horrible, terrible way I thought was going to prison
Carey:Or gonna murder jail or gonna federal jail, like, you know, checkbook jail. That's, that's different. I mean, I think it's a lot to lose.
Meags:Yeah. Well, I mean, the other thing is like, it sounds like he's close to the rest of his extended family. So he's got a lot to lose if they're, you know, if they're willing to kill the people, you know, if they're willing to kill his wife and son, why wouldn't they kill his mother
Lisa:He's not acting like that. Like he's not acting like they're gonna come after his son. It just, it
Carey:Yeah. No, this is totally right. He doesn't see, there are, see, this is what happens. It's like there's, there's a lot of. Yeah. I mean there's a lot of, eh, and I just,
Meags:conflict?
Carey:oh man. I don't know. And I don't know if that's enough to convict some, I don't think it is enough to convict somebody of murder. Um,
Drea:A question for you, Carrie.
Carey:What's that?
Drea:I have a question for you. If you didn't know, this could be for all of us. If you didn't know that he has 700 years worth of like indictments for the, for the financial crimes, do you think you would be more convinced about him murdering his family? Cuz you know he is gonna go to prison, right? Like, we know he is gonna go to prison. He's not getting out.
Carey:Oh yeah. Right, right. I don't, I don't get, I I, I'm sorry, I missed the question. So if knowing, I mean, I know that he's, he's definitely, he's not getting out, um,
Meags:But if you didn't know that, if you were not aware that he had, if, if if this was happening outside of the, the, uh, the knowledge that he's a financial ster, would it change, would it change your perception? Of, of whether or not he's a murderer.
Carey:Uh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a big deal that evidence came in. I think it's a huge deal. I think it's, it, it, it, if the judge gets reversed, that's, that's the reversible error is they left all those financial crimes in and they let it in his motive. And I don't think they made the bar. I mean, I just don't think it's motive to kill. I, I, I don't,
Lisa:Yeah, I don't, I don't like their, their motive.
Drea:Well, what is the motive? What is the motive? I don't, I've never understood.
Lisa:the confrontation.
Carey:I'm sorry, go ahead.
Lisa:No, I was just saying, I'm like, just going for you, Carrie. It's like, you know, remember what Carrie said about the confrontation from the, I think it was a cfo, but whatever
Carey:Yeah, yeah, I mean the, from CFO confronted him the day of the murder and was like, Hey, there's this problem with the, you know, I don't know, where's this much amount of money? And, um, and, but it was, I don't know, let's say it was like$200,000. It wasn't, it, it, in the grand scheme thing, it, it wasn't that much
Lisa:Right. But don't forget about the, the hearing on the boat case was also coming up that week, and he was
Carey:yeah. And there was a, there was a hearing coming up, but it was a motion to compel. And, you know, I mean, he had a great, he's like, I wasn't worried about that. I knew they weren't gonna win. I mean, and he's a plaintiff's attorney. He knew, he, you know, why would that be a motive?
Drea:So for Megan, Megan, wait, wait, wait, wait. Megan doesn't, Megan doesn't know about the boat,
Lisa:Oh, the
Drea:so, so this is so her so her brother, her. okay, I'll let Carrie.
Lisa:Sorry.
Carey:the, so, okay. This'll be really quick. Um, but if you, if you're interested, watch, um, the newest Murdoch thing on Netflix. Very good. Very good. and this is about the, and that, and that focuses more on the boat case. So, uh, Paul, the son that was killed, was driving a boat, uh, around in the dark night. And he was super drunk, super drunk. Everybody was trying to get him to stop. They surprise, surprise, they fly into a pier and, you know, crashed the boat and one girl dies. Other people are really in injured. His, um, his like, so this is a murder and his dad, Paul's grandfather is like the assistant solicitor or something like that. So it's essentially the assistant district attorney and like they get to the scene, they get to the hospital really quickly and are trying to convince everybody that this, this other kid was driving. He was totally. Absolutely, totally corrupt. Um, just good old boy crap. Um, and so, uh, anyways, so there was a civil case coming up and there was the criminal trial of, of, um, of Paul. But, uh, again, I just don't think, yeah, I don't think it, it, it, is it these, I mean, just the way they were killed, it was so brutal. And he doesn't have a speck of blood on. I, I mean he, they, they repeatedly said they blew his brain out outta his body and he doesn't have any blood on.
Meags:Okay.
Lisa:that's what I was saying. He cleaned up. He cleaned up somewhere. Somebody was there cleaning up or. He dumped the clothes. He cleaned up, he cleaned up at his mom's. Oh, that's the other evidence. His, his wife's blood. This is the other thing that gets me too. How does his wife's blood get on the steering wheel of his car?
Carey:Oh, he said, I mean, he, he, said that he,
Meags:how much, how much of it was there? How old was it? There's a, I mean,
Lisa:why else was his wife? How else would, why else would his wife's blood?
Meags:I mean, I try, I trade cars back and forth with my husband all the time.
Lisa:But how would your blood be on the steering wheel?
Meags:What if I had a hang? What if, what if? What if I had a hangnail?
Carey:but no, listen, he, I mean, he testified to that Friday.
Meags:blood's not that
Carey:He said that he touched, you know, he probably touched Maggie and went to his car to call or something like that,
Meags:All right.
Carey:so he had
Drea:Oh, that's right. He did say he touch.
Meags:So like I watch a lot of crime tv, like an unreasonable amount of crime tv. And I have to say like I've seen this boat story on Prodigal Minds and I think maybe on elementary, like there was definitely a couple of shows that did that same exact thing. And so I can tell you that the answer to this whole thing is it's the parents of whoever he killed and they killed him and his mother, cuz his mother was there. They framed the dad, the
Lisa:That's what the dad said as soon as the cops walked. Oh, yeah.
Carey:Oh, I'd like, yeah, I'd like if, if it were the voting,
Meags:like all, all, everything, everything that looks like it should be the motive. Everything that has to do with his money and his other crimes is just, you know, fruit of the tree.
Carey:It's all smoke ears.
Meags:just just fruit of the tree. Like it's just other stuff they found out because of this one thing, but.
Lisa:But the other thing though too, is Carrie, you gotta talk about the roadside shooting. That's also supposed be evidence.
Carey:well, I can't really, I mean that these are, so the, um, just to be. clear. They the, uh, the roadside shooting and the what, what the other thing that didn't come in, why is it escaping my, there was a, a housekeeper death. Um, those are all, I mean, and some of this road stuff, there's like, uh, there's a lot of bodies around this family. Um,
Lisa:is just horrible. Well, not only, it's like. Even if it, even if it was an accident and she slipped and fell on their property. I mean, even if that's an accident, the fact he's told his, the, her kids file a claim against me, you know, against my insurance so you guys can get money and be okay. And I forget how much money he said they'd get. And then he acted like he was their attorney, which is a complete conflict of interest. You can, as an attorney, you cannot do that. And then he son that.
Carey:Oh, come on. He passed that. Years ago, 10 years ago, he passed that ethically, that
Lisa:yeah,
Carey:was like long, long ago.
Lisa:and then he just told the kids that they, it was, it was one of those things, oh, it's still pending. It's still pending. Meanwhile, like, I don't know, like a million dollar,$2 million decision or something gets handed down and,
Drea:No, it's more than that. I've just been listening to all this.
Lisa:well now, yeah, now it's, uh, it's come out. I mean, since then, They've just, they've settled out of court. The, um, those sons, and I think they've gotten like 5 million or something.
Drea:Well, so just Megan, for your For your edification, 2018. 2018 is when their house, uh, housekeeper, she fell down the stairs. At their house and, um, and got very, very injured. Like, her head was injured. She died three weeks later and he, yes, he was like, Sue my, yeah, like my insurance company. But then he like, at least is right. It was like, it's totally jinky. Like he gets his friend involved, his friend like cuts, checks. It's totally fucked up. And then he just completely embezzled it. Like he sets, he opens a bank account. Uh, he says he's gonna put, set up like a, a. Yeah, a trust, like a settled, it's a subtle
Lisa:he, opens up an account in the name of the trust with him as a, like the pay, you know, the payee from the
Drea:Yeah.
Lisa:Forge Forge account
Drea:So that was 2018, and then in 2019 is when his son killed that girl. And so he's in all kinds of legal trouble for that. And then 2021 is when his son, that same son, and the mother gets killed at their house like.
Lisa:2021. Then like Labor Day weekend of three years, 2021 is the roadside incident. It's arguable he was shot in the head. That is a, a fact. But what the guy said who shot him said that he was asked to shoot him at the, at the, on the roadside, told him, please shoot me, um, so I can get some insurance money. And um, and then he refused to do it.
Carey:he testified to that and actually it was, I thought it was. Telling because he was like, yeah, I, I, I did that because I, you know, I wasn't expecting to wake up like I was trying to kill myself. And then this bozo fucks it up and I woke up and had to come up with a story as to what was going on. And was, I mean, I don't, I mean, it was kind of compelling to me that he was like, I,
Meags:you're you.
Carey:I, totally intended to have been dead.
Meags:So you're telling me our accused murderer also has a traumatic brain injury
Lisa:No. Cause it just like,
Carey:dunno what happened to him from getting shot in the head. I mean, it, it, you would think so.
Lisa:it was a flush wound.
Meags:slash wound. Okay. Just checking. Just, just checking.
Carey:so I don't know. There's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of open. I don't know. There's a lot of stuff I think the prosecution has to clean, clean up, and I don't really like the prosecutor. I think that if this is made into a movie, it needs to be played by Richard Dreyfus. Um, looks exactly like, yeah. Yeah.
Lisa:I do not like the old fuddy-duddy, fake old fuddy-duddy routine that the defense attorney is doing. The lead defense,
Carey:Oh, the big bald faca. Yeah. I mean he's like Elmer fud or, or Foghorn Leghorn. I did.
Lisa:everything. Oh, this is all so complicated. These phones It's just like,
Drea:Who would you have play him? Who would you have play him?
Lisa:what about you? I don't.
Carey:Oh, I don't know if he's alive any longer, but you remember that actor that like played the lawyer in a lot of things and he was like really jolly and had that southern accent. I think maybe he was even a politician.
Lisa:was that Tennessee senator. Yes,
Meags:Thompson.
Lisa:has passed.
Drea:Hmm. I was thinking John Goodman maybe.
Lisa:Ooh. Yeah,
Carey:Yeah, That's a Good
Meags:I.
Lisa:old St. Louis boy.
Carey:Yeah. So I don't know. Um, we'll see. I mean, I've eaten up almost all the hour. This is great. I didn't even get little fantastic. But hey, listen, we need to be lighthearted every once in a while, right?
Meags:A lighthearted discussion of murder, roadside shootings, boat deaths. yeah. absolutely. A hundred percent.
Lisa:So thank you, Carrie, for showing me how much of this is just, I've sucked in because I haven't paid attention to this thing in days, and I'm just rattling all this stuff off.
Carey:Oh yeah, it's it's totally a dicking. So I, I, you know, who knows? I think that'll probably go to the jury early this week. Um, and then we'll see how long it takes them. I, you know,
Lisa:I was worried I'd miss, I'd miss the verdict that I'd be on this retreat, so I'm glad that you know, I'll be around
Carey:Yeah, I think we have a while and I, I mean, we'll see. Maybe we'll have one next week. My, um, my prediction is a hung jury. Anybody else wanna make a prediction?
Lisa:is mine. I think it's gonna be a hung jury as well.
Carey:Andrea?
Drea:I'm gonna def, I'm gonna defer to you guys. I mean it. even just where I am with my podcast, I'm like, I don't, I don't, I don't see it. Like, I don't see why he would do it. I mean, especially if you think about all of the stuff he does to protect his family. Like, you know, I mean, like that, that's, that is the thing that they are, uh, that's the only thing they care about is. Themselves, you know? And so like, I just, uh, it, yeah, it doesn't make sense. Like he had nothing to gain. He had nothing to gain. And in fact, probably if he knew he was going down for all these financial crimes, he would've wanted them there like as support
Carey:Yeah. Right, right.
Meags:So I have a prediction, even though I don't know anything, but I watch a lot of tv so I'll tell you now that they're, they're gonna, there's gonna be an accidental death in the jury pool. Cause there's a lot of bodies dropping here. There's a lot of bodies in this story. They're, they are not shy about dropping bodies. So like, I mean, depending on which show you watch, I mean, they could, you know, somebody's got an allergy and they poison them. I mean, there's a lot of options. If they're sequestered, then they're in a hotel. You have to be telling a hotel. I mean, like the options are, are legion really when it comes right down to it. But I, I predict misadventure in the jury pool.
Carey:Perfect.
Lisa:I don't think they've been sequestered and the judge hasn't let them take notes, which is scaffolding to me.
Carey:Yeah. The note taking notes thing is weird, but it varies state by state and I think it's mean not to let you have a notebook.
Lisa:I know it's like, so you let'em have a notebook. Don't let'em take it with home with them, but, you know, lock it up. But let'em take notes if anything.
Carey:Yeah, right.
Lisa:I mean, for me, as someone with adhd, I would need to doodle while I listen to to something do. But
Carey:I would absolutely have to take notes. I mean, that's how I remember things is by writing'em down. So it,
Lisa:yeah.
Carey:for me.
Drea:I don't know. I used to make zla uh, write things down 10 times when she was doing spelling words like by hand, and she hated it. She's like, why I have to do that? I was like, cause this is how you remember. And so she writes shit down now she's like, my
Carey:It's true.
Drea:notes and they don't do as well. And I was like, I know I told you
Carey:I knew something
Drea:Well, thank you Carrie. I know we didn't, there were, there was definitely an underlying mental health shit going on there for sure. I do think he's a
Carey:Well, I'm sure somebody has a problem. There's bodies dropping. So, uh, somebody has something to deal with,
Lisa:Oh, but. I will, can I, can I plug another podcast though that has a good summary of this case for at the beginning of it, like, not like the murder, like I think when they did the podcast, the murder like, had just happened. But Sinister Hood, they have a two-parter on the, um, on the Murt Hug family. So give you some good
Meags:I have. I have a question for our resident legal team, which would be Carrie and Lisa for those of you following along at home, um, do you guys like fictional trials as much as you like actual trials?
Carey:No, I like actual trials. Way better. Fictional trials are dumb.
Meags:All right. I was just ask, I was asking because like growing up with a physician, like my father wanted, like, I was always like, er, I can't wait. And my dad was always like, ah.
Lisa:No, but.
Carey:Yeah.
Meags:know part of it. So like when you guys were all like this trial, I was like, what is happening? But like that makes sense that it's an actual trial and that's the dividing line.
Lisa:Yeah, it's like, so I did enjoy, like, uh, I remember my, I took a trial class in law school and they had us watch in class, part of the movie, uh, my cousin Vinny, for, uh, establishing.
Carey:of my
Meags:Classic.
Lisa:For establishing the, uh, the girlfriend as a, um, expert witness, like how they laid the foundation. That was very, um, uh, that was, that was technically correct, the way I'll put it.
Meags:EV. Every once in a while the movies come through.
Drea:the, the, when you, if you do listen to any podcasts or anything about like the, um, especially I'm thinking about the, the home, the housekeeper who died,
Carey:Yeah,
Drea:is like, it is literally like a movie. Like I like the, and I don't, you know, I'm not an, I'm not an attorney, but I'm like, there's no way. I mean, how did these people get away with it? Because he was literally like, uh, it was, I mean, there's so many conflicts of interest. It really did. It was shocking.
Carey:Yeah. And so much money. Where'd the money go?
Drea:I
Carey:the money go? Drugs. It has to be drugs.
Meags:the money. Isn't that supposed to be the rule?
Drea:We're trying.
Carey:Right,
Drea:I'm trying.
Carey:all the time. right, ladies.
Drea:Okay. All right. It's been real. See you
Meags:Carrie.
Drea:Bye.
Lisa:to bed.
Meags:Goodnight. Love you.
Drea:Love you all.